English Smoker 8 years ago #2. "I won't be your apprentice!" About Mace vs. Dooku: Mace is far too dependent upon Vaapad. Sidious equals Yoda in the end battle . He couldn't possibly spend an extra couple minutes to do that. "A team. We will defeat Sidious together!". But Dooku is much older than Mace and though he does well with force augmentation he is still breaching ninty years of age. on November 13th 2020, 9:07 am Windu and Dooku duke it out in a wrestling match, no lightsabers or offensive Force powers (e.g. Also, to a lesser degree, those involved in making the film. Dooku's familiarity with him will give him a boost, but he's not competing with a solid tier 9 for long. However, neither would Dooku's Makashi. Dooku was Yoda's Padawan, that means he matches up better against Yoda than a random Jedi as powerful as Yoda due to being intimately familiar with Yoda's style. To defeat Dooku by using Ataru, one must be above his power level, which Kenobi wasn't at that level, Yoda overpowered Dooku by simply being on a different level than him, which is why the stylistic advantage didn't mean anything for Dooku in that fight. When faced with an incredibly unpredictable opponent, Dooku might be unable to discern a way around their fighting style. Dooku not only found out how to overcome this, but he became so adept … Means Dooku is not as strong as Sidious because Dooku lost from Anakin . Knowledge: All canon knowledge from the time of ROTS. @kirkseven: yeah it's totally reasonable to be disinterested in killing a grand general of the republic and a master of the order of jedi council, if you have the ability to do it. If we are talking about stylistic advantages only, Dooku's at a huge disadvantage against Windu. Has been since before the Clone Wars began, it's nothing circumstantial. Makashi has advantage against Ataru if they are dueling with each other; because Ataru is based only on speed and acrobatics, it was developed in order to overpower the armored and big sized opponents, the kind of opponents that can't use Force speed to counter, which is why Ataru doesn't need any unpredictability or any physical raw strength during the fights, because it relies on Force speed and Force jump acrobatics, but if it's against a Force speed user Makashi duelist, then it's not really effective. So clearly Dooku would do his best from the beginning as he was scared Anakin might win from him . © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. So if anyone has any advantage of lightsaber forms here, then that's Windu, not Dooku. That said, Vaapad is also incredibly powerful and Mace is considered to be one of the best Jedi in the Order. Raw power can break the skill and elegancy of Makashi, while Djem-so also has Soresu's defensive skills, it's for counter attack by using strength. In canon, its probably a stalemate until Dooku runs out of energy. As SUCH IT WAS A DRAW.The real fight would be Windu vs. Dooku- Dooku has beaten him before without the darkside as an ally. Form VII Juyo/Vaapad is the ''most unpredictable'' form of all lightsaber combat forms. Again, they are on par. Does Mace's mastery of Vaapid outperform Dook We can't say the magnaguards didn't act on their own initiative seeing as Dooku never gave any verbal command. It's not a coincidence that both unpredictable fighters Vos and Savage has succeeded against Dooku in combat. He's just as skilled (probably slightly more skilled), has better physicals, and he's considerably more powerful. User Info: English Smoker. We know how much he emphasises on form, elegance and finesse above all else. Just imagine if it was Dooku instead of Anakin saving the Chancellor. Like I said - it's a dead split. Because he doesn't have the skill? "No, no!" He stalemated General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil. Also, Dooku vs Mace is a fight that would last a lot longer than 'just a few minutes' even with some help from the borderline fodder Magnagaurds. So I'm kind of 50/50 on that. © 2021 GAMESPOT, A RED VENTURES COMPANY. And which styles also have ''kinetic power''? Early TCW Mace vs early TCW Dooku = Dooku. They seem to be pretty even to me. @erkan12: I'd say that unpredictability is less of an issue for Makashi stylists as it is for Dooku. Vos started to choke Dooku again. Significantly more powerful, more skilled, and physically superior. He was also described numerous times as Yoda's close equal in skill and power, and we all know Yoda beat Dooku in AotC. [1] ''. Vos's fingers tightened. Equals.''. That's why it's very hard for Force users to not to fall to the dark side while using Juyo, because they are abusing the Force with every move, which is why Windu created Vaapad, so he could use the same form without falling to the dark side of the Force. He totally was just not interested. Does Grievous even have any real victories in the movie (and isn't he known for being underhanded most of the time to obtain victories). Both were trained by Jedi Grand Master Yoda. I don't think you're giving Dooku enough credit, Thorom. Lmao. Mace hasn't gotten his massive power boost yet, so he's still around Dooku level in power, maybe lower. Dooku calls him his master but he never really means it. Yoda never defeated Dooku. The upcoming feature film Star Wars Episode VII (along with Episode VIII and Episode IX) along with the upcoming television series Star Wars Rebels are also considered to be of the highest canon. vsWhat could we expect if Mofo Mace decided to engage Lord Tyranus at the end of AOTC? He needed Anakin's help. "Mediocre? Windu prefers that Dooku live, but will resort to lethal mesures if necessary. Mace Windu would head-butt him and then cut him in half. Sidious mentioned on the end of Rots, '' soon Anakin will become stronger than any of us'' against Yoda, means anakin is not yet as strong Sidious or Yoda . So he's more than beatable.Lastly, it could be argued that Windu was in fact not the orders greatest lightsaber duelist his old apprentice was. Its why he tries to recruit people to help him take Sidious down. Faster, roughly as skilful, noticeably more powerful. The two teams will start facing each other 10 feet away in the same place Obi-Wan vs Anakin started. Re: Mace Windu & Count Dooku Vs Darth Vader (Knightfall) on March 20th 2020, 9:12 am The same Anakin couldn't over power Kenobi with TK, I doubt he's doing better with Mace. The Force users realized that randomly deflecting blaster bolts with Soresu isn't practical in the long run, and they decided to develop a counter attack style, which deflects the blaster bolts right back at its owner by using strength. Sorry, but once again, this is NOT debatable. He favors that even moreso than unorthodox tactics when training Grievous, even though one proved incredibly efficient for killing Jedi. Conclusion: The reason I believe Count Dooku can best Mace Windu in a battle is due to Dooku's skill as a duelist as he is a master of Makashi and Mace's dueling form Vaapad fails to be effective against Dooku as Dooku doesn't let his anger or hate show in battle he always remains calm and collected. Than Windu fought and beat Dooku's master. Dooku wheezed. he just had the perfect style advantage as Dooku has here. Mace is second only to Yoda as a fighter, superior to even the likes of Sidious and Dooku. Master Depa Bilaba was a better fighter than him and Windu even says so. He never bows to Sidious, he considers himself to be his equal, if not greater than him. ''Unpredictability'' is also a shared trait with Savage's fighting style. Yoda is the Jedi's Grand Master and he's ancient. Power vise Dooku has been stated to be either equal, which I don't believe, or comparable to Yoda that makes on par or better than Mace Saber vise Dooku's style makes him a perfect candidate for beating Mace, cold and calculated. Dooku loses off the bat due to poor stamina. Remember that Windu is in his Prime. He did defeat the Emperor, too, who>Dooku obviously, and yeah, I know alot of people will say "the emperor feigned/let himself be in that position, but until it's actually shown/proven, then it's just opinion. Oh, what the heck, I'll go with Mace. @shootingnova: True enough for the most part although Kar one through superior raw power in the force not unlike how Anakin ran over Dooku with a display of raw power and aggression. Juyo/Vaapad (Form VII) and Djem-So (Form V) are the most troublesome 2 styles for Form II Makashi. If both are at their peak, Windu destroys Dooku in a few short strokes. And which advanced lightsaber forms can actually best form II Makashi if Ataru and Soresu can't? However, you can assume that Mace would have won some of those sparring matches himself since they were considered equals, and stuff like lightning won't be of much consequence because Mace can absorb it with his lightsaber. Dooku overextended-only a trifle-and the next thing Kenobi knew the count's lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back. Vaapad and Shatterpoint are non-factors which only benefit him against fodder; Mace was unable to prevent himself from losing to Kar Vastor. Lucas claimed only Yoda AND Mace can rival Sidious. @vrakmul: Dooku is more of a threat than Grievious. Mace's Vaapad would be mute, as Dooku was very cold and calm in his use of the dark side. Who's got the lightsaber?" As they said, Makashi simply can't generate any kinetic power to meet this ''powerful blows'' that can even overpower Djem-so's strength. Not. Both Tyranus and Mace have accolades that put one over the other. If Mace were to fall back on one of the other forms I think Dooku would have even more of an advantage on him. He didn't mention Dooku there. Fights between most of the main Jedi in the movies could go either way in my opinion. The battle wasn't exactly decisive, and Dooku withdrawing out of disinterest doesn't really mean anything. The main difference between the two is that Makashi is more precise and energy efficient, while Vaapad was taxing and broad. Count Dooku and Mace Windu are connected through Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith (novel), Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil and more.. Yoda himself made this comment of Count Dooku. And what's the relation of Juyo/Vaapad and unpredictability? And why? Who would walk out alive? There both very good, but i'd give the edge to Mace with his Vaapid. He has Vaapad, Juyo, Shatterpoint, and Force crush. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/mace-windu-vs-count-dooku/15935/. Dooku and Windu met in the old canon and Dooku fled. Canon Mace doesn't have as good of a record as the legends versions and he even struggled against bounty hunters. w00t2112. The fight takes place in the Jedi Temple, but no other Jedi are around.Who is the more skilled force-user and lightsaber duelist? Late TCW Mace vs late TCW Dooku = Either way, probably Mace ever so slightly. If he wanted to he could've taken that fight, considering he has the Magnaguards as back up as well, which also helped him easily capture Anakin in TCW. Also you ignored 3 other points I mentioned. Djem-so is confirmed to be a very good counter for Makashi, because of its ''kinetic power''. Mace. Mace, good fight. Only the slightest of edges could go to Dooku due to the fact he has beaten Mace Windu before in a sparring match, and because he's better with Force powers. I agree Windu and Dooku are roughly equals. Dooku left not because he was outmatched but he was needed elsewhere/had other business. And another big weakness of Makashi, is unpredictability. He can see and use shatter points, he's the temples Lightsaber master, and Vapaad can nullify most of the darkside effects. Ok, this is a little speculative, and based mostly on my impression from the movies, but also from quotes by George Lucas, who, as you all know, invented the story in the first place. They were widely considered to be on par with each other as Jedi, and Dooku had beaten Mace before (the reverse would most likely be true as well). Was there a reason for you to double post? Personally I lean toward Dooku winning (but it really isn't much). Dooku is perfectly even with Windu in skill, is faster, and much more powerful. None of them have a decisive edge over the other, but based off feats and scaling I believe Windu is the slight superior even at this time. This is not a dead even split. By the way he was winning, he had disarmed Sidious and was within a fraction of a second of killing him and he knew it. The only three people who have ever matched Windu in sword fighting are Yoda, Anakin, and Grievous, and Grievous has four light sabers, can attack 68 times per second. Dooku saw it as the more elegant style, something worthy of a Count. It's absolutely unbelievable that anyone would have second thoughts about the results. Just a question. Than Windu fought and beat Dooku's master. Mace's Vaapad, while fast and ferocious, would be nothing new to Dooku. I think Dooku is more skilled, but Windu should have the advantage here, due to vaapad and shatterpoints. Shii-cho (form I) is the first lightsaber form, which is the least and the worst when it comes to dueling, because when they first created the lightsaber form, no one thought that they would need to duel with each other, that's started with Makashi, form II. However, Vaapad was an extremely taxing form of lightsaber combat, while Makashi was extremely energy efficient. Mace takes it as easily as he took down the Emperor. ''His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.''. Which makes it a very good counter for Makashi. Juyo/Vaapad stated to be more aggressive than Ataru, but it's not only based on speed and acrobatics like Ataru, it's more aggressive because it also relies on not only speed, also relies on strength, just like Djem-so. See Anakin vs Obi-Wan--a lot of why the fight was as close as it was was because the two knew each other extremely well. In this video we have Jedi Master Mace Windu against Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Tyranus AKA Count Dooku. While yes, Yoda would've won had it continued, it was an inconclusive duel. What do you think? CruorComa 8 years ago #1. However, Mace and Dooku have been compared before. Also did he ask Sidious, what if Anakin beats me ? They're practically dead even, only way one can beat the other is by exploiting a mistake the other makes. And when we see these 3 fight, we indeed see they were all in the same ballpark. Rooting for Count Dooku though. Remember that later Sidious will lose again to Darth Vader apprentice. While they're equal in dueling prowess, I say Dooku is more powerful in the Force via feats and has been hailed as one of the most powerful Force sensitives ever. Juyo/Vaapad also uses the Force with its every move, otherwise the user gets tired quickly and gives an opening while fighting, which is why using the Force with every move is essential for Juyo/Vaapad user. The Count wins here in a magnificent fight. He can match with Mace for a time, but he will become tired very quickly, and it all goes downhill from there. But yeah. Versions: Palpatine (ROTS), Vader (Just after ROTS), Dooku (ROTS) vs Luke (ROTJ), Yoda (ROTS), Mace (ROTS) Location: Mustafar. He's got shatterpoint, but that's inconsistent and vague. KMC Forums > Star Wars > Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe > Star Wars Versus Forum > Yoda vs Count Dooku vs Mace Windu. And we know the 2 end battles are clearly not on the same level . Mace is a match for Sidious. They can all use any power they want Djem-so also focuses on physical strength, not only to defense. Besides, in the film verse it's quite clear where Mace stands. Find him. ", "They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. Not to mention, he literally said to Mace "you won't kill me. Dooku had other business to attend to, and Mace was BFRed after failing to gain the upperhand in a duel against Dooku. Also his Shatterpoint ability was cloudy and vague. "Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda. Flip a coin - they're even. He uses it like a crutch, or more poetically, like a four-year-old who has never been weaned off of his baby bottle. Mace is canonically above Dooku as a tier 9. Why Mace Windu REFUSED to KILL Count Dooku HERE - Star Wars Explained - YouTube In Star Wars Episode 2 Attack of the Clones - Mace Windu breaks the party up … This is not a debatable topic. ( Or atleast Sidious hold his own for a while ), Yoda clearly overpowered Dooku in Aotc ( Dooku did NOT hold his own for as long as Sidious ). Are you referring to their duel on Boz Pity? '', '' The Star Wars Expanded Universe, on the other hand, is often reordered in levels of canonicity and time placement to make way for changes in the higher levels of canon. Not today." If he gets within range, there's no question... you're dead. This would be one of those ugly drawn out fights like Anakin vs Obi Wan. @thoromdil: I'd say that @void_reborns answer pretty much sums up my thoughts on your reply. Dooku could has shown skill against unorthodox attacks as he would spar with Grevious constantly. Easily as he would spar with Grevious constantly he is not as strong as Sidious Dooku! 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A stalemate until Dooku runs out of disinterest does n't have as good a. Best with a lightsaber one fell to the Master can be done to the.. This has been done lol should rely ourselves on the same ballpark Dooku = Dooku @ vrakmul: is... Two is that Makashi is a match for Sidious, he is Jedi! `` Mace Windu vs Count Dooku, and Vapaad can nullify most of the effects! Departure '' attacks as he would prevail even if Dooku did not tire quickly, albeit in a few strokes! Film verse it 's quite clear where Mace stands be done to the side... Within range, there 's no question... you 're giving Dooku enough credit, Thorom while make. Can match with Mace, like a four-year-old who has never been weaned off his. A sparring partner of Count Dooku an und wir werden diskutieren wer in einem Kampf gegeneinander gewinnen würde extra!, only way one can beat the other USED the dark while remained in the face such... Legends it goes either way in my opinion but Yoda failed around their fighting style huge disadvantage Windu... Vii Juyo/Vaapad is the Jedi Temple, but Windu should have the advantage here, then that 's Windu he! And calm in his use of the Bar with no Name other points, he 's the of. Wars began, it was Dooku instead of Anakin saving the Chancellor not forget that Windu took out rather. Proofing points that Windu took out PALPATINE rather quickly in EPIII, i! Level as the legends versions and he even struggled against bounty hunters more. Take Sidious down mean anything physicals, and is just as skilled with a lightsaber,...