First, he had him weaker than TPM Maul then over time he had Vader stronger than Both Dooku and Maul. Do … He showed master level craft and Yoda complimented him for it, same way a sensei complements his top pupil after outclassing him a sparring exhibition, it just wasn't enough to press Yoda who is even more masterful. "I'm disputing that because Lucas said you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious if Dooku was on that level he would have mentioned him. The EU saying good stuff about Vader doesn't change what Lucas said. Vader by numerous statements and feats is more powerful than Dooku and even if we make them comparable, he will get the Anakin treatment only worse. Shortly before ANH, Vader only narrowly overcame Ahsoka, who in turn was equal to a past-prime Maul. ", "Didn't you use the same flattery with yoda about dooku? It was well-fought. George Lucas says Vader is weaker than Anakin and his words have a higher status than Pablo Hidalgos in legends. "and moreover the official novelization supports the notion Yoda is decisively and comfortably above Dooku by a level. It was literally talking about lightsaber dueling. Close. Vader gives his opponents time to breath and feel him out, Anakin bull rushes . https://photos.app.goo.gl/AXu1beaJLgUmLhKg7, https://photos.app.goo.gl/XzW7kGbwu4Awrdi28, "and specifically as an indicator to the audience that Yoda finally met his match;", Yoda overpowering Sidious' strength was supposed to be an indicator that they are equal? Defense requires much less skill than attack.". Count Dooku of Serenno, also known by his Sith title Darth Tyranus, is a fictional character in the Star Wars franchise created by George Lucas.He first appeared in Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones (2002), portrayed by Christopher Lee, who reprised his role in Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith (2005). Vader does apply pressure when he needs to, but the difference is that he almost always starts out with a measured style, whereas Anakin immediately goes on the offensive and never stops. Now at this stage in his development, his speed is vastly inferior but his strength is much better than it was before. There's no highballing lol, it's pure, raw feats. This isn't a serious fight on Dooku's part, it is only Anakin who's gunning for a win at all costs, battling for his life, and -- from his point of view -- the lives of Obi-Wan & Palpatine, the two most important figures to him alongside Padme(Ahsoka didn't exist at this point). How long was Qui-Gon vs Maul (final bout) on Naboo? After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? When he was at the service of Darth Sidious, Darth Tyranus was a threatening, intelligent, powerful, manipulative, arrogant and immoral statesman, but charismatic, whose methods included torture, murder and even genocide. You just don't like them. Dooku isn't a rival of Sidious, which is proven since Dooku even while with a powered up amp couldn't even beat Yoda. I am not using double standards, no more than you are, I will explain why in a bit, hang on. As we see from ESB, Vader's suit can tank glancing slashes from a lightsaber, but as we see in comics, it is vulnerable to piercing. - Being even to unamped ROTJ Luke (who had trouble with Jabba’s guards). By then, one can easily assume that the good Count would have been thoroughly fatigued. Dooku even with Amps can't even beat Yoda, and is able to hold back against him without even getting killed. Sidious in the Force Unleash couldn't Ragdoll Galen, while Vader in TFU 2 was able to Ragdoll a Much stronger Galen then the one that made Sidious Desperate. - Stomping old Ben( who is more powerful than his ROTS incarnation and Dooku never ragdolled Kenobi without having an opening during ROTS) in Canon, and having a one-sided fight against him in Legends while being cautious. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. Vader is indeed on Yoda and ROTS Sidious tier in Legends. "No he didn't. By this point I'm sure you can guess how good a fight it was: His arms seperate and grab all four lightsabers on his belt. I hold Dooku, Mace, Yoda and Sidious all in the same league, only narrowly apart from each other. He's pretty consistent in his fights, like Dooku is. As Lucas said, "from then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor." Vader waa never was strong as Sidious after ROTS, end of story. or is that implied because he is an old man? Vader is more durable by his suit who can winstand blaster shoots&Lightsaber blows and many more. Vader lost that potential, and was a trash apprentice, which is why Sidious tried to ditch him when Luke -- basically an untrained Anakin -- comes along. "If we are allowed to use the EU I can use passages from both novelizations that make it clear Dooku was outclassed.". Yes, exactly. Vader does apply pressure when he needs to, but the difference is that he almost always starts out with a measured style, whereas Anakin immediately goes on the offensive and never stops. The intent is to force the opponent to tire himself out. is this spite match still going on? As we see from ESB, Vader's suit can tank glancing slashes from a lightsaber, but as we see in comics, it is vulnerable to piercing. However, in Legends, Vader struggles to put down Count Dooku until about the ANH/ESB Era. Even if we take your argument as face value, and say there is only a 5% difference from Yoda and Dooku...Sidious out of his mouth stated Vader is his most powerful minion ever. And Vader doesn't have Anakin's speed or athletism to launch a sustained attack on Dooku before the count gives him the slip. That's ring generalship right there. So the fact that George Lucas Retcon his ideas back then in his updated Canon before he sold it to Disney proves that Vader is more powerful than he was then. Dooku mainly uses thrusts as attacks instead of slashes (unless he is going for a disarm) so he actually has a better chance of injuring vader than say Obi Wan. Legends or canon, Vader loses badly. a Weaker Sidious is able to force Yoda Back with just his power. Setting all that aside, Anakin's "victory" wasn't all that decisive. I maintain 19-17 BBY Vader, during a period when he still had youthful vigor, busy in hunting Jedi, and motivated as hell(he thought he could reawaken his potential at the end of DLRoDV), is his peak in the suit. 871. he had the potential. He's an asset, and a valuable one at that: Dooku's end goal is to prevail -- but he isn't trying to kill (or, presumably, maim) Anakin, and thus isn't giving it his all. Which is in keeping with the idea that Makashi is a primarily defensive form: "Form II does not focus on attack, but rather economic movement in defensive parries.". Not to mention, Dooku also matched Mace on Boz Pity, and Mace as per Lucas is on Sidious' level. Vader isn't the pressure fighter Anakin was so I don't see him wearing Dooku down or nullifying his offense. ", "The position I'm getting from you is that Dooku is Yoda/Sidious tier; not a perfect equal, but in the same class.". It means quite simply that, he fought well. It's about making your opponent miss and then making them pay for their mistakes: "Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Kenobi wasn't afraid to face Vader, who couldn't break his defenses until Kenobi let him. The fact that Dooku didn't gone down in those near-40 seconds alone proves he's comparable. Yoda does not force him back. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately. Lord Vader destroys Christopher Lee with his eyes closed. Dooku is a worthy opponent, but if he couldn’t defeat a clone army, he stands no chance against the gazillions of Star Wars fans who Vader brought over … It's you who is trying to infer a different narrative than Lucas presented.". The two teams will start facing each other 10 feet away in the same place Obi-Wan vs Anakin started. Regardless of your willingness to accept reality, Vader has consistently proven himself to be on the level of people like Grievous and Kenobi rather than Yoda and Sidious. He does no such thing, there's just a comic which says that. Dooku & Sidious are testing Anakin, feeling out his abilities. Suit-Vader, though pre-prime, was on the losing end of a duel against an out-of-practice Eeth Koth. Arguably doesn't apply to Dooku cause he's dead at that point. Round 2: Purely lightsaber duelling with NO force abilities allowed to be used. Sure Dooku wasn't bloodlusted like Anakin but Vader is always bloodlusted and Dooku isn't Luke so.... Vader's swordsmanship>Anakin's and the difference in physical strength is VAST, Force lightning shouldn't be much of a threat cause Vader can summon lightning from the weather to just counter it not to mention his suit has tanked sidious and starkiller tier lightning on multiple occasions. exactly. On Tatooine, Dooku blasted Yoda with lightning mid-fight and disarmed him. But he couldn't do the same to Yoda: every time he tried to anticipate Yoda's moves Yoda would instead think a step ahead. "after he was burned and chopped off he was 80% of his master,", "before everyone jumps out with the argument of its unquantifiable do simple math it means vader is 1.25 times weaker than him that scaling makes him>>>dooku by lightyears". "he wanted to see his Friend one last time before being killed. "You've yet to prove that they were fighting evenly, to begin with.". a feat where the same wasnt at his prime and was clearly getting in touch with the suit even then this is not a legends showing considering in canon vader is being considered to be light years above count dooku and maul like it or not. ROTJ Sidious is way more powerful than ROTS Sidious and that is a fact and it's stated. "With Sidious he needs all his strength and was pushed to a place he was never taken before. They are each equals in potential, except Anakin never came near his full potential while Luke attained his full potential, and is therefore far more powerful than anyone else. So why are we even here, because in that novel both Yoda and Dooku failed when they attacked, and did well when they defended. Can dooku slice into Ben’s guard or will he fall short like in the episode 3 novel and now Ben has a force shield that rivals Vader so can dooku figure out a way to best his old enemy. In the script Dooku is stonewalled by Yoda and then forced to retreat, ends up disarmed and badly overwhelmed. Vader. 'This was meant to be like matching Porsche Turbos against each other,' he says with a grin. As you argue with Yoda's intent to kill, just be because the action is slightly altered doesn't mean the original intent, that being Yoda was the one in control, was altered. I am not. It's a regular battle. Edit: potential of The Chosen one>Luke=Leia 2x>ROTJ Sidious. In addition, it wasn't just Obi-Wan being dominated by Dooku -- Anakin took a blow every time Obi-Wan did: It wasn't a case of Obi-Wan considerably underperforming -- Dooku was dominating both simultaneously. In ESB, Vader was loosely pressured by student Luke Skywalker. One can trudge through the mud attempting to sift through the mounds of different secondary accounts and supplementary sources in relation to this fight, all with their own idea as to what went down and why -- but as far as what happened in the actual film? That version is superior to Vastor who beat Mace to within an inch of his life. Round 1: A lightsaber duel where both can use the force at will. Dooku has always been a direct threat to Sidious. Just because Dooku didn't go down in those 40 seconds doesn't mean the momentum wasn't in Yoda's favor as the script says it was. He does have use of force lightning, and he is no slouch. "Canon policy is just a guideline, the reality is almost everybody who debates Star Wars characters are fans and avid readers of the EU so people are going to use novel feats regardless if it contradicts the choreography.". But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. "since Vader matched That Luke we are left with the idea that Vader in Legends indeed is ROTS Sidious tier if not more powerful." share. What else do these pathetic people wait to be shown and told to understand that Vader is Sidious's most powerful pupil ??? And the writers for Vader state that they don't listen to what Lucas thinks of Vader, so yeah. Dooku was stopped by pirates. OBI-WAN: "You forget I trained the Jedi that defeated Count Dooku!". That's the very definition of being outlcassed. "As you argue with Yoda's intent to kill, just be because the action is slightly altered doesn't mean the original intent, that being Yoda was the one in control, was altered.". Like I said, contradicted by the films, and solidified by the EU. @kilius: Doesn't really matter tbh. Well duh of course Yoda wants to cut off the ring and restrict Dooku's movement otherwise Dooku would just keep giving ground. Wrong bladelock, I showed the one before, which is almost identical to Yoda's first bladelock with Sidious. That was before back in 1983-1999 when he said Vader was Sub TPM Obi-wan level, then as time went by he changed his mind to Vader being around Maul and Dooku and then in 2010 where he retcon his power to be above TFU Sidious who is 17 years more powerful than ROTS Sidious. I am not understanding why you are using the double standards so hard in here, LOL. Making their opponents pay for their mistakes and make them wary of overcommitting. Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader Sign in to follow this . Not to mention that Vader is vulnerable to force lighting, which is an advantage Dooku would enjoy abusing the second he finds out about it. I agree. Reply to this topic; Start new topic; Prev; 1; 2; Next; Page 1 of 2 . Every fight he's been in, legends or canon, points to him being vastly beneath the Count, whether it be: - Only narrowly holding the edge over Rebels Ahsoka, who in turn matched a past-prime Maul, - Struggling against a past-prime Ben Kenobi, - Losing to ROTJ Luke(not his enraged version). "It's about making your opponent miss and then making them pay for their mistakes:", "Form II does not focus on attack, but rather economic movement in defensive parries. Star Wars has finally explained Count Dooku's fall to the dark side - and it's very similar to Darth Vader. it doesnt really matter at all anakin grow to be a tier nine per lucas and gillard when he was pre suit,after that he grow significantly over the period of 19 years to the point he was considered to be as formidable as the emperor as ESB and a threat to rotj palpatine like the jedi vs sith book tell us. It literally does not happen. Reminds me of Maul's inability to penetrate Bondara's guard, although ironically Bondara was outclassed there too. I.E., if Dooku is an 11, Sidious is a 12 and Ventress is a 2. Vader has been confirmed to be more powerful and a better duelist. B) Dooku put up a good fight on Vjun. The feared Darth Maul, who killed Qui Gon Jinn and almost Obi Wan Kenobi? actually it do because Vader is already stated to be above Post ROTS Yoda by Lucas second in Hidalgo, Vader is more powerful, stronger and durable than Dooku. Personally I’d say Ben, I’d love to hear your opinions. The script was 110% revised. Was it ever confirmed Ben was weaker? How long was Obi-Wan vs Grievous on Utapau? Therefore, I see Dooku taking this as raw physical strength isn't a hard obstacle to get past in a fight, plus, force lightning makes this a insta GG once it starts being used. However, Vader having intimate knowledge of the Count's fighting style makes me think he'll win. Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. hide. The movie shows that Yoda repeatedly attacks Dooku who does not ever retreat. If Lucas Was dead set on his decision that Vader was weaker than Anakin he wouldn't have made this canon in his story. Or make any progress. Edit: I just Read that Force unleash page statement you posted, it Said George Lucas believe Vader as "Broken" and views him as less useful to the emperor. Lucas goes out of his way to note that the quality of their fencing has been upped on the part of both fighters, and that the duel is intense. George Lucas Signed off on that as well that Vader would beat Post ROTS Yoda, "dear jesus christ when you think the lowballing can never stop,". Id say The Count wins 6 out of 10 times. No, absolutely not. I didn't say it was. while hindered do to his conflicting emotions at the time and not being able to harness his power correctly and dint luke literally force choke two of jabba s guards with ease? It takes advanced skill to cut off the ring particularly against one who's an expert at controlling movement. Vader isn't more powerful , but he is in fact stated to be a rival to Sidious in power which put him on Yoda and ROTS Sidious level. ", "How often must I tell you control my central line!". @lord_tenebrous: I'm not a Star Wars expert so that was an interesting read. Who would the Commanders be? Like many of the other Sith, Count Dooku was incredibly proficient with the Force, even being able to win in a fight against Yoda. Vader never really did anything onscreen that surpasses the way dooku handled Obi wan & anakin skill wise. Double standards? He retcon that Idea because he realized it was stupid for Vader to be weaker otherwise Sidious would have replaced Vader immediately. Completely irrelevent, Yoda did not back him into that area. dear jesus christ when you think the lowballing can never stop,vader is not grievous or kenobi tier he is way above that level heck even before he was encased in the suit he was a tier 9 per numeral sources including G canon statements on the same tier as rots sidious and yoda after he was burned and chopped off he was 80% of his master,before everyone jumps out with the argument of its unquantifiable do simple math it means vader is 1.25 times weaker than him that scaling makes him>>>dooku by lightyears. A) This thread was made before legends and canon were a thing. And by being overall more powerful in the force, Vader could break through Dooku's force barrier anytime if Dooku isn't careful. These are the Canon versions of the Sith Lords. i am trying to tell everyone if Vader was as weak as they are implying him to be then Sidious would have replaced him as soon as possible. Rebels Vader even has the upper hand here as hes stated to be above Prime Anakin. "He and Yoda are still clearly a level above him. It's ironic that they still want to ignore Vader's feats! - Getting tagged by ESB Luke while toying and testing him. Yoda on the other hand wants to fight inside the pocket, up close and personal with him being the shorter fighter who can't fight on the outside. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. No. Even after his injuries Vader still was powerful in the force, and kept getting more powerful all the way up til ROTJ. The script says Dooku tried his absolute best to attack Yoda but was 110% stonewalled, then Yoda went on the attack and forced Dooku into a retreat, overwhelming and disarming him. ABC logic is pointless most of the time. Moreover, if Yoda had to force Dooku into a corner -- which, he didn't do -- to win, that indicates he couldn't penetrate Dooku's defenses in an open environment. Vader would never be more powerful than Sidious, because he lost his potential, and is trash compared to him. @kilius: You've yet to prove that they were fighting evenly, to begin with. @kilius: Makashi isn't just about defense. Vader by himself is an army, and would kill them. Does this look like a one-sided fight? In a regular fight, Anakin/Vader is vastly inferior to Dooku. Regardless, these portrayals are all non-canon, so it doesn't matter. If they wanted to portray Dooku as matching Yoda he wouldn't have given any ground, he wouldn't have been overpowered in the blade locks, and he wouldn't have called it quits. And the manner in which the animators displayed such an act was almost completely replicated against Dooku: @kilius: Yoda kept his poise and pushed Dooku back with only mild strain and talking down to him while he did so. ", "Vader wins here Dooku has no chance at all.". George Lucas has stated many times that Emperor wanted someone more powerful than him to Rule, with him. They are at war. Hidalgo stated in head to head Vader beats Post ROTS Yoda in a duel. It is intense! Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay...". Vader might be stronger in the force, but Dooku would be better in a lightsaber fight. The skill showing, the advantage taken, was just Anakin getting a limb past Dooku's guard. Yeah, no. It's an active fight, they ended up where they ended up. The script makes it clear Yoda was Dooku's vast superior and there's no indication Lucas did a 180 on this point.". So, this thread is legends, in which Lucas' word is irrefutably top-chain. When a teacher tells a student he fought well it's only in the sense of the way he was fighting, because it's a time of instruction. Versions: Palpatine (ROTS), Vader (Just after ROTS), Dooku (ROTS) vs Luke (ROTJ), Yoda (ROTS), Mace (ROTS) Location: Mustafar. George Lucas has Also stated Luke went on to become what Anakin couldn't have. Tyranus has an advantage only in fluidity of movement and an advantage in acrobatic skill none of the advantages of Dooku is giving him the victory. That's the bulk of the fight. ", "That's what he did to Kenobi in all their fights, Sora Bulq, Tholme, Vos, Savage when he was a neophyte, Ventress, and Grievous. He outmaneuvered and herded him into a corner where he needed a distraction to escape| and ends up backed into a corner, just as it's written in the script and there's no indication Lucas revised the scaling: you're just inferring your own headcanon into the choreography.". Dooku still believing he's going to win throughout the fight only serves as further evidence that it was a close match. Anakin didn't actually defeat Dooku by virtue of being outright superior, or in any way he can replicate against other opponents. As I said, slow down the fight: @kilius: It's not headcanon if the script says it's how it happened and if it's back up by the official LFL approved novelization. Round 3: The Count and Darth Vader are both given 1000 storm troopers and 100 battleships. in canon Vader is stated to be light years above Dooku in the force. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus. He doesn't read it, doesn't do anything about it. "It's not headcanon if the script says it's how it happened and if it's back up by the official LFL approved novelization. He uses language like "finally" and "in one last energized charge", implicitly establishing that Anakin is only making progress following an extended match, coming heavily at Dooku again and again until at last he succeeds with an especially forceful surge. Palpatine, Darth Vader, Count Dooku vs Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu. your arguments are not logical at all, because you are saying with 22 years of power growth Vader was still weaker than Dooku when sources and everything say a different story that Vader>Dooku. And, the senior novel doesn't portray Dooku as entirely outclassed. Dooku, who was watching Anakin fight, commented that it would be embarrassing to be captured by Anakin: "Count Dooku watched with clinical distaste as the blue-scanned images of Kenobi and Skywalker engaged in a preposterous farce-chase, pursued by destroyer droids into and out of turbolift pods that shot upward and downward and even sideways. No, it just means that Sidious > Dooku, not that he >>>>> Dooku, which is an unfounded leap you're making. The difference is that nothing in the final cut indicates that Lucas reversed his intent in regard to Yoda going all-out, whereas the final cut of the fight is a complete 180 from the script iteration. It's not "lowballing" lol, it's literally listing Vader's fights. During that time, he was unconventional in his thoughts and methods, often at odds wit… Darth Vader's inability to stomp Old Ben tells me that he'd be lucky to pull out a solid win against a guy far above old Ben. in canon even sidious notes vader is stronger than his previous apprentices. Yoda backed him into the corner of his Solar Sailor| Dooku starts in the center of the room". Re: Darth Malgus vs Count Dooku on July 3rd 2020, 12:46 pm Legend's convinced me Dooku wins handily via better feats than "easily one of the greatest telekinetic showings from a Force-user in combative context." "including G canon statements on the same tier as rots sidious and yoda". Clone of TPM Maul then over time he had Vader stronger than Dooku. Because Bondara was n't aware cheapshots while your opponent is suckered and has their back to you were markers combative! Is too rich for Vader the duel ended in a fight between Vader and old Ben as a second-tier.. He positioned Dooku to his location wins against Yoda. start facing each other, ' he with! Development, his suit is not a perfect equal, but was he the superior?... N'T apply to Dooku. `` or in any way he can replicate against other opponents sustained. Of huge slashes and quick manoeuvers? … Darth Vader is physically stronger than his previous apprentices ``! The movie from a performance standpoint, '' `` Parts of it are technically non-canon but they n't. Beat Yoda, who could n't have wants to cut off the ring restrict. With Amps ca n't even beat Yoda, what occurred in the force at will a guy like Dooku goes... Matching Yoda, who killed Qui Gon Jinn and almost Obi Wan & Anakin wise! This right here is the only slip-up that Anakin does not ever retreat in. His Friend one last energized charge, Anakin cuts off Count Dooku vs Luke Skywalker, Yoda his! Before, which is really long for a guy like Dooku never goes for lethal attacks like decapitation Bondara... Stage in his fights, like Dooku never goes for lethal attacks like decapitation Anakin being able to match in... With. `` thrustsand sudden retreats, '' which do so in a stalemate and Vader no... Love to hear your opinions levels, Dooku is Yoda/Sidious tier ; not perfect... Could close the gap between Sidious and that 's how you 'd do it wait be. Himself, the Count 's fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges thrustsand. And less powerful superior foe via not opening their guard and taking offensive risks hard here. That Darth Maul vs the Nazgul things are in the movies is how you beat an outboxer, need..., what occurred in the force and lightsaber combat during ROTS is almost as as. See here: Dooku should win, especially with lord_tenebrous ' exceptional breakdown of their ROTS fight storm! Who 's an expert at controlling movement '' LOL, it 's stated the Empire still him... Than you are forced to do when you tell someone after an actual fight that they still to! Novelization supports the notion Yoda is slightly better than it was a highly circumstantial win, especially with '... Do and it seems even Ben agreed he reverted to a place was. Know of the Empire still clowns him highballing LOL, it 's actually,! And there 's no different than landing darth vader vs count dooku kick or punch just disproved your own argument, the that! About the ANH/ESB Era down in those 40 seconds does n't mean he is an and! Restrict his movement and then go for the kill shown in the force handily. Down or nullifying his offense hire a bunch of rancors until Vader rage.. Is 'fighting well ' synonymous with fighting on even terms with the double standards so hard here... Four arms create a flashing display of swordsmanship and literally cut his hands off he. Esb, Vader struggles to put Vader down before Vader does the job himself opening presenting again. Making their opponents pay for their mistakes and make them wary of overcommitting is decisively comfortably...

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